After a remark of Felwrath in chat about getting a healing spell as a priest of Hestlin i started looking at his spell list. To my surprise this guy has all the good Fo spells and then some. I knew when I choose Fo as the god for my character it would never make me a lot of coin because he only gets 3 really useful spells: - courier (mailboxes) - genesis (remove bad traits) - life transfer (wepon enchant) Besides these 2 minor spells: - lurker in the woods - charm animal.
Now the problem is Hestlin gets each and everyone of these. This made Fo priests pretty much void (except for maybe someone needing the heal spell once in a blue moon, but they'd have to be close by because of heals ticks etc).
Now he also get's dark blessing, all the lurker spells, web armor and a lot more. I understand trying to implement a new God is a hard thing to balance but it seems Hestlin has a bit too much going for him or has taken away too much from Fo. Not sure how he is compared to Vynora but I know Vynora and Magranon have some enchants at least which Hestlin doesn't get.
1. We are aware Hestlin is OP, 95% of his spells are exactly how he rolled them we wanted his list to be as organic as possible without being over the top OP. Basically all custom dieties roll OP. We are limiting everyone to one toon. Hestlin is a compromise for people who are used to having one of each priest because there are very few servers that impose a character limit. 2. From Magranon - Hestlin has Stonewall, Dominate, Firepiller, Goatshape, and Mass Stamina 3. From Vynora - Hestlin has Wisdom of Vynora, Shard of Ice, Excell, and Tentacles 4. Fo is the only Diety with two very high level weapon enchants Life Transfer and Venom. It seems reasonable that Hestlin would get one. Over all if you compare the three light dieties, Fo has more high level spells that are exclusive to him than the others. 5. Here are some powerful spells that are still only available to Fo priests Venom (weapon enchant), Wildgrowth, Ward, Cure Medium, Cure Serious, Light of Fo (AoE heal). 6. If you look at the total number of spells available, and the difficulty/power of each of them, Hestlin is similar to the others, He just happened to randomly roll some of the more popular spells. 6. Everyone has different priorities so what feels balanced to one person will not feel balanced to another.
I am willing to open a discussion about re-balancing Hestlin, but only once. If we re-balance him now, we will not open it up for discussion again.
Right I may have worded some of this wrong judging from the reply. It is no so much about having no useful spells (cause healing is nice) but no spells to make any coin of. The spells I listed are the ones that could make you money (as stated a healing spells may get you a few coins but you need to close and online right there and then).
- The problem with venom is that it doesn't stack with life transfer and life transfer is superior for pve (*edit* at least I think it is as the main thing about venom is the chance to kill on heal tick but most things are dead well before they get one). - Wildgrowth I honoustly wouldn't know if people would be willing to pay to have trees advance an age and crops to be tended. - Ward only works vs enemy kingdom and not wildlife so on a pve this would be useless (possible exception: rabid hyena can spawn and are viewed as enemy kingdom). (*edit* at least listed on the wiki this way)
Again, I don't know how Vynora and mag priests see their potential for making money so I'd love to hear from some on that as well.
I do see and understand your point about making money. I didn't choose Vynora for the money, but rather because she fit my personal needs. Thinking about it, BoTD competes with most of the money makers for Vyn, except for potentially stacking WoA on weapons. The big difference with Vynora is she doesn't really have any spells that are easy money makers exclusively. Sure she has frostbrand, but Mag's Fire weapon enchant competes with it. So unlike Fo priests that are used to both Genesis and LifeTransfer exclusivity, Vynora priests are used to the competition. I also am interested in what others have to say about the balance.
So I finally took a long look at Hestlin and noticed, similar to the above complaint, that everything iconic and vital to lore about Fo and in practice was already within the New God for this server. Hestlin.
The concerning Spells are:
Having both Charm Animal & Genesis
Why are these Concerning:
Having both Charm Animal & Genesis: It should really be one or the other of these and not both. Fo is very much a God in consideration of animals and nature. He is very drudic in nature and that includes sheltering of the animals and creatures as well.
Cure Light: Now this is a Fo's priest bread and butter and is only really a concern when you consider Hestlin has so many of the other iconic parts. Cure Light is more often used even when a Fo priest has cure medium or better and Heal is definitely one you only use when facing uniques and on the tank (usually not yourself). Though Cure Light I can see relenting to if one of charm animal or Genesis is addressed as well as Life Transfer. Which brings me to my next point.
Life Transfer vs. Venom: I've read the lore and talked with Emma to have a better understanding of Hestlin and how he came to have the spells. I can see Fo teaching Venom far easier than that of Life Transfer. An integral part of Fo in a lore perspective and his followers is that of those that safeguard life and have a profound understanding for it. Fo teaches his followers to love life and by having that respect for life to also do everything to safeguard it. (From the inscription: With the same passion by which I once created all this, strike down at those who aim to destroy these creations. Love me. Let me love you.) Only to accomplish this aim is it that a Fo priest casts this spell. From an RP respective it is because of this understanding of life, this love of life, that they also understand the value in taking that life. This is something from an rp perspective i can see them keeping to followers of Fo and instead sharing the knowledge of Venom instead.
Venom For PVE: Well, I'll let numbers speak for themselves on using it to run through mobs using Trolls and Taking trolls down to about half health then just leaving them to die while you fight the next troll (leaving the first one in the dust and out running it's agro while you run into the next one) We'll assume if you see a group of trolls ahead of you you do try to pick them off with a longbow one at a time to spread them out. (my usual tactic)
60 power 2h sword - Took almost 20 minutes, had to hit it a couple more times as it healed.
75 power longsword - Took around 15 minutes on first attempt.
Spiders I've seen with one hit and then bam on them as well with a 75 power enchant on Venom.
Reiteration of the bulk of the issue:
To many of the Fo iconic spells/rp reason to be a follower of Fo. My first thought reading Heslin is wow. All of the iconic reasons to be Fo are completely in Hestlin only he doesn't have the lore reason I'd follow him only mechanical. But If I want to be attracted to Fo for the rp and lore that Fo is then why bother being Fo when I can have all of the iconic and practical uses of Fo as Hestlin.
Now if penalties were included, and I had a chance to see Hestlin's penalties. That might change. But the other main mechanical draw if we go that route to be Fo if I was to priest question was it allowed certain actions normally disallowed to priests. That is removed with the no penalties to priest thing.
The Mechanical sides of the argument:
Looking strictly mechanically speaking. Cure Light is fo's most used cure. But as I mentioned earlier. I'm fine with Hestlin having that since he did in Lore learn from Fo if we address the other mechanical issues.
The charm animal and the genesis spell. Charm animal is useful for those cases when you don't have enough of that one thing to tame that one creature you're trying so hard to get. Okay use Charm Animal to bring it home and make it a loyal companion. Oh you're home and you see that one of your animals have bred a beautiful 5 speed horse but it also has a bad trait. Well Fo wants animals to live and you not kill it for leather sooner rather than later so let's remove that trait only... wait i'm not fo i'm Hestlin. Having both of these does detract a main mechanical draw of fo being followed by ranchers and woodsy types. The charm animal is really handy as a fo follower as well as the animal passive for most. The few that the animal passive don't work on charm animal will take care of for the most part. (some exceptions of course) . The biggest rp draw I have had as a Fo Priest has been to come to someone's farm and remove bad traits. So of the two I'd suggest Charm Animal stay with Hestlin but I can see an argument for either one to stay and the other to go with the lore.
Now we come to the mechanical reason for Venom versus Life Transfer.
Both spells cost 120 Favor to cast. Venom is learned one level after Life Transfer. Placing it at a higher technical value than this spell. Mechanically speaking this is the bigger damage dealer especially with the instakill capability on mobs. (PvP it's not as useful for other reasons and it's main use really is in PvE). I have seen a venom weapon instakill a nogump during a fight for example. (If you've never faced a nogump those fights tend to go for a long time and I will scream and run away from them like the petite girl that I am.) Now I know what you're thinking. If Life Transfer is 'lesser' why can't we keep it.. but that's the point. Venom truly is the better spell between the two although, as I did suggest earlier, if we take away Genesis or Charm animal I would also argue that in addition to Venom I could see bloodthirst be a very good option for Hestlin.
Bloodthirst I see as more like a rage thing. It's not as vampiric and for a God born from war and battle it makes alot more sense to me for Hestlin to have and it's placed on the same level (despite being received at 31 faith). I'd actually suggest manning a main weapon with venom with the secondary weapon (assuming you dual wield) as having Bloodthirst (originally a Libila spell). Combine that with the Aggressive or Normal fighting stance and you will have a killing machine combo with these two spells if they're added to the Hestlin list in place of Life Transfer and one of the animals.
The way Hestlin is currently written he has to much of what is vital to Fo. The main reasons to be Fo are all currently within Hestlin. After looking at Hestlin it's like... mechanically speaking. There is no reason for me to be Fo besides the fact that lore-wise Fo fits my character and the backstory I have in mind for her versus Hestlin. I follow the RP but Hestlin does need a serious re-balance and the most vital of these things honestly is the Life Transfer and the double up on the animal related. Let Hestlin have one of the animal related ones but not both. I also get that Fo has TWO high level enchants so I do understand giving Hestlin one of Fo's instead of one of the other two gods'. Just. Venom should have been the one given INSTEAD of Life Transfer. Adding in the Cure Light just kinda further cements the why be Fo. Taking out the cure light and you still have the double up.
Thus why as a Fo Priest I can see a compromise in letting Hestlin also have the cure light (making it 2 gods with a cure spell out of 4) but taking one of the animal related back & replacing with Bloodthirst and swapping Venom for Life Transfer.
I look forward to the discussion regarding this. Since as it currently stands. This server is not giving a viable reason to choose Fo to follow and honestly reads more like you're replacing both Fo and Lib with Hestlin.
Selenity - Thank you for a well thought out and presented argument! I will open this thread for two weeks for debate and will close it on November 21. I will not participate in the debate, but at the end of two weeks the GM's will read and discuss this thread and make a final decision.
One large negative for hestlin is that he only gains alignment when you sacrifice with full favor and when you pray at the alter of light. He lack the thngs like cutting down a tee every hour for vyn and what ever the others get.
Also keep in mind sure the life trans is a great spell how ever its one that very hard to cast and take two priests working together to cast it (as we are all limited to 1 preiest that means no one player can even cast it.)
This is not he first time Hestlin has had to give up some of his enchants. The life transfer is the only weapon enchant he has left. Web armor is nearly never used as its Aosp that's normaly cast on armor. Take it sae with the lurker enchants. Also Genesis I agree should be Fo enchants as should be Charm. However if you take 4 or 5 spells from Hestlin what are you going to give in place of them. As for the cure light it fits well to his warrior history.
Don't forget other dieties have enchants that they have to share as well look at Mag Strongwall is his only real coin maker, and Hestlin has it should we take it as well? Just because a different diety can cast your enchants dosent mean you cant just that you have compotition. No different then if there was sevral Fo priests.
I have a lot I am not saying as I am way to tired and this prob makes little logic at all. Pluse my spelling stinks and not takeing time to correct it. A this point I no longer really care to fight about this its been has fought over more then once already. Just do what your going to do then give a free diety swap. In the end its up to each of us to deside if we can live with the things as they are or as they will be But let me say this making major change to players charcters ability after many months of work at developing them is never a good idea as those that have stayed with the server will have to deside if the server is stable enough as it is to keep playing or if its to big of a risk to loose what you have worked for and go try a different server. There is always going to be players that are not happy with this or that or the other thing. In this case nothing has been taken from Fo instead its just being shared with another, yet you now call for Hestlin to give up things. Ok how would you like it if it was ok if hestlin losses the shareing of LT so FO can be the only one to have it then FO should give up something so that Hestlin dosn't have to share it with Fo how ever LT is a very high and powerful enchant so lets say Fo losses Genesis and Charm or at least just Genesis. How does that feel after all its only fair if o shouldn't have to Share then why should Hestlin have to share. Then what about Vyn her biggest selling enchants are WoA and CoC and she has to share those with Hestlin only Hestlin gets it in one cast not two, its not right that Vyn has to share that big money maker so what should each of them give up so that each gets something good they don't have to share. What is worse sharing or losing it all together.
I do agree with Trepedia on the grounds that I have been with Hestlin from the beginning, and I don't think it's fair to change things after MONTHS of praying and working hard on my spell casting ect... I understand that there should be an incentive to follow which ever god you wish to, but let's say hypothetical that it was Mag that people wanted to change. The folks who started following Mag from the beginning and created there RP toons centered around him put the time and effort into the spells and channeling ect.. they would feel a horrendous loss, and face the loss of the god they had chosen to follow to be pushed out and onto another god. This topic has been brought up in the past and in the beginning I believe a few changes were made, but this isn't the beginning anymore. This is effecting people who have worked hard to get where they are in there chosen faith. Saying pfft.. we don't care that you worked hard and did everything right, were taking this and that away is a punishment.. and people who have worked hard on there faith shouldn't be punished because someone else thinks that there god is more important.
This is not to be directed at Sele , she is new to the server so has no clue how hard some of us have worked,and the changes we have already gone through with Hestilin
So first going to address this part: This is not the first time Hestlin has had to give up some of his Enchants. -- I'm a new player to the server. I had no idea this was done before and when I was being told about Hestlin I was informed that a change had been considered and then the issue dropped when the Fo priest left before. As far as I'm aware the only thing swapped at his creation was WoA for Blessings of the Dark. His change at the beginning was a have a lesser of Wind of Ages and circle of cunning both. That is the only spell I'm aware of to have been taken and instead given a more beneficial spell.
As far as alignment: I agree that he should be able to have more alignment ticks. If that's possible to adjust I fully agree. It shouldn't just be sacrificing at full favor to gain alignment. Though from what I've been informed by another hestlin player they also don't have negative alignment ticks? Is this true?
I don't mind having one or the other of the genesis or Charm but having both is a little much. Let Hestlin keep one of them. I don't mean take them all away I honestly don't. . Honestly I like the idea of him keeping genesis to tend to animals because that does keep with the lore of him learning a bit from each of the other gods. It from an rp lore suggestion shows one of the main ideologies of Fo has been taken to heart.
Also the issue is not that they have to share spells. I understand that spells will be shared. My only issue was that there was to much of Fo in Hestlin in comparison to the other Gods. I went over the spell list of each of the gods with Emma and what was in Hestlin. My suggestions have even been in line with only taking away one Fo spell completely and swapping out one high level fo spell for the other as it made more sense in my mind rp wise that would be the spell that Fo would teach.
As far as the point that Life Transfer is the only weapon enchant he gets. I did suggest that he get Venom in replacement of Life Transfer AND also get Bloodthirst. So he'd gain TWO weapon enchants. Granted the two can't stack on each other but as I said Having a sword with Venom on the main and then a lead weapon with one of the other weapon enchants (bloodthirst could apply here). Makes for a very powerful combo for PvE. With the new attributes to metals thing having a lead offhand weapon (not used as often as the main) also grants a chance for poison wounds on a target and makes up a bit for the weakness of lead takes more damage when it's used. (Also means more repairing and imping done on it.) Life Transfer is something I mostly use for pvp. Then again, I'm a more cautious fighter even when I'm a fighter so I've never depended on Life Transfer in PvE to keep me alive in a fight. And that I can see is the main point why someone would want it versus focusing on out damaging and then healing with cotton afterwards.
To be clear. For me its not an issue of competition. I don't care about selling enchants and usually as a Fo priest I don't sell enchants I just go ahead and do it for people. It doesn't make sense for rp purposes for my character to charge for enchants. So that isn't an issue to me at all. It's the lore of it for me. I only included Mechanical options because when I was asking about why so much of Fo was in Hestlin without leaving an area of his tenets rp wise I was told I should put this all into the forums and include info about mechanics as well.
Going to be clear I did not suggest to take all 4 or 5 spells away. If you FULLY READ my post. I suggest that it does make sense for him to know cure Light and I think that it's a good idea to have two gods with a healing spell. I also did not say take away both genesis and charm animal. I said take away ONE of them. As I've said in this post earlier I think Genesis is a good idea. The leaning to take away charm animal is only because Hestlin also already has dominate. Granted charm animal works on the creatures and Dominate works on humanoid monsters but to have both of those in one is a bit much in my opinion but then I suggested to replace charm animal give Bloodthirst though I do understand it's feeling like Bloodthirst is to dark. I'll admit I did not think of it as a dark spell and more like that it was similar to a warrior in World of Warcraft or a Pathfinder Barbarian having 'rage'.
Yes there is sharing of spells. If it was just sharing some spells in the SAME PROPORTION as Mag and Vynora that would be fine. But everything that is core to fo IS ALL IN Hestlin. That is my concern. From what I've been told there was no voice of understanding of Fo when Hestlin was created so consideration for Fo wasn't represented unlike with Mag and Vyn who had people to to voice at Hestlin's creation.
I am not bringing my concerns up to just take from Hestlin but after learning all of this from talking with those that have been willing to tell me a bit about the lore (Thank you Emma and Octavia) that is my concern. That is what I'm trying to bring up. I like this server, I like what it's trying to do, and what I can see as an issue, and what I've been told, is you're losing Fo players because of this. I was told the former Fo priest ended up leaving due to dis-satisfaction with this, granted he and I likely would have butt heads because he does Life Transfer for coin and it's not something I do (charge for coin that is) and we would have had to come up with a compromise on it.
Life Transfer I feel like is a guarded and if it's simply of giving Hestlin something at the High Level I was like let him have Venom. And Hestlin already has a variety of spells that Fo doesn't have. His main draw, as I was told, was supposed to be his blending of spells from each of the gods. Mag and Vyn both have some spells I see as beneficial that are exclusive to them. Now I don't know Mag and Vyn's lore as well as I understand Fo's and Libilas (I've started as playing a Lib priestess (with penalties) for 2 years then I played as a Fo follower for 4 years with the last 2 years as a priestess with penalties) on non modded wurm servers that kept the action timers the same as what they were on Wurm Online.
Now I do know some of the practical uses of Mag (my best mates/friends) play Mag priests on our other server (pvp no rp). Like the light tokens in mines. When you're mining and you've made a mine that is larger than one by one tiles and systems (ie having a 2x2 room or greater cleared in the mine) it has the chance to spawn monsters in the mine like spiders, rats, cave bugs, and occasionally trolls and other scarier ones. Especially if off-deed. Putting lights around (granted light tokens decay over time) will ward off the monsters from the area and they will stick more to the darker areas for the most parts.
I'm not bringing this up to crap on all of the hard work others have been doing. In this case, it is alot of the lore and rp reason to go with Fo has been given to Hestlin. It's not an issue of sharing spells. It's an issue of lore and tenants for me and THAT is what I'm being passionate about. Personally, I've never cared for the spell Botd and I would rather go to a vyn priest to get both WoA and CoC. To address that mechanical thing you've mentioned.
If Fo had only one spell at that level like Vyn and Mag. I'd agree with you. The issue here is Fo has two. Life Transfer and Venom. Life Transfer is the issue and it's why I say let Fo keep Life Transfer and give Hestlin Venom which mechanically speaking is the better spell for PVE. From what I've understood Life Transfer is more of a PVP spell and has more of a draw for that. Life Transfer doesn't work on uniques whereas with only a few exception Venom does.
If you want to take away Charm Animal from Fo, fine. I can see an argument for that as it is similar to Mag's dominate but Genesis fits with Fo far to perfectly in loving and caring for all. If you want to make Charm Animal an exclusive to Hestlin and take it away from Fo I could see a case for that. Genesis, lorewise, I can't.
If a way to make people happy is to take something completely away from Fo in addition to giving Hestlin Venom. I can be on board with taking Charm Animal out of Fo's list in exchange. Let him keep Dominate and Charm Animal which is slightly op and if you really want Hestlin to have Genesis. I'll give on that ground too.
I'm willing to compromise to not feel like Fo priests aren't wanted in this server. Keep Charm Animal and Dominate. Take Charm Animal completely away from Fo. Keep Genesis as a shared spell. Keep Cure Light as a shared spell. But swap Life Transfer for Venom as venom is more likely in the lore for Fo to have willingly shared. Life Transfer I can't see a justification Lore Wise.
I got no names about any of this ad even if I did names make no difference to me. Sorry if I have caused other pain I normal just go with the flow however right now my life is a forced mess cramed down my through and the thought of the same in game just hit me wrong. You all do what ever and I will deside once the smoke has cleared. Again sorry if I steped on any toes never wanted to.
There's been some feedback tonight in private channels and despite how strongly I feel about this. I feel like we shouldn't be hurting the players that have been with Hestlin for so long. I hadn't realized how long the server was up. I get that I am a very loud voice even by myself in this but you're right. I'm currently the only hardcore Fo follower (to my knowledge) and after hearing some of the more emotional ties and how it's effected some in real life I'm willing to let go of this issue because it really isn't fair to those that have spent 9 months of game time with daily work. I'm sorry for any duress I've caused others.
After listening to everyone both in this thread and in private conversations we have chosen to re-balance Hestlin's spell list. This thread will be closed.
We addressed the following concerns. Hestlin had the best spells from Fo, Vynora, and Magranon basically making all other priests undervalued. We have created a balance so each of those dieties are able to retain their value because although they have shared some things with Hestlin, they still keep their primary spells to themselves.
Hestlin had spells that did not fit with him as a character/person. Those spells have been removed.
We have also added 5 custom spells that only Hestlin will have. This fits his history and gives his priests their own value without infringing too much on the powers of the other priests.
We have left him intentionally a little overpowered in his spell list. This is offset by the fact that he has no passive powers such as the fighting bonus of Magranon, or the skill gain bonus of Vynora and sacrificing chopped veggies or praying at the alter of three seem to be the only ways to increase his alignment.
The new spell list is posted in the server specs and will be active when we switch to PingPerfect.
This matter is now closed and Hestlin's spell list is final.
Given the magnitude of these changes anyone who wishes to change their deity will have an opportunity to do so without losing progress. If you wish to make a change please submit a ticket for a GM to address it. This offer will remain open for two weeks.